How would you all do it? (kinda long)

[drummerdad]

Okay, I asked this on my local board, and they are no help. I figured I could get some advice from the guys who've been where I am, maybe.

Ive been wanting another engine in my firebird for awhile. We bought a house last year, and that has really slowed me down. Its been hit and miss, mostley because of the budget. Needless to say, its small ($2k a year, but I might be able to increase that next year, hopefully). Anyway, heres the delima...


I want a fast car. The problem is its going to cost....ALOT. You guys know its an expensive hobby. Well, I want a World products 427. Yeah, I know. Its a $10k engine. And that doesnt even account for the Trans, and rearend, and SFCs, and suspension, and......You get the idea. The car currently has a pathetic, but dead reliable 305 tbi, and 700r combo. Thats right, in all its 150hp glory (good for a best to date of a 16.2 ). Im afraid if I "settle" for a smaller engine, like a 350, or 383, Itll be the last engine I get. And Im NOT putting aTH400, and an S-60 behind a 150hp L03, much less a 6-8 point cage. So should I be patient, and built it right once? Take a chance on a decent but less powerful engine, Or go for the middle? Heres my breakdown:

Motown 427= about 4-5 years to gather the stuff, and get it built. Roller cam, Forged everything, and makes about 500hp+, when done right, on pump gas. With some work, itll take as much nitrous as I can throw into it. It could easily make 750+ hp on spray. But itll shred my stock drivetrain parts like a meat grinder. Costs about $10k, for just the engine. (this is what Id really like to do) I dont have to have the Motown block, and PAW sell a 420 cid kit Ive been eyeing.....

Blueprint 383= I could have it in maybe in 2-3 years. Its a decent, but unforged engine. 405 hp, with a crappy cam, and vortech junk heads. Itll take a small shot, but nothing any bigger than a 125. I can swap the cam, and heads eventually, and get @ 450. Costs about $4500, for the engine. And it has a warranty.

Crate 350 = Basically as stock as it gets. 290 hp, and absolutely no nitrous. I could have this engine in next year. Its still about 140 hp more than I have now, but I wont want it there for long. Itll drop right in, and I could build the rest of the car. $3k give or take.

I know there are other options, but Id really like a huge motor. Id like to make it a deadly fast street car. And I have no plans of running at any national events. This is strickly for me, and the local street fights. Something I can drive, but not far. Eventually, itll be relegated to a weekend warrior. I dont think Ill ever run 9s, or even 10s. But its been a dream of mine to have a stupid fast car forever. And Id sell body parts I dont need for that 427.

Im a firm believer in doing it right the first time, but I dont know about this project. I could gather parts but you guys know, they have to match. And I dont like spending money on the same thing twice. The fuel system for the 427 is alot different than the one needed for a 350.

So, how would you do it?

[mightymouse0355]

Belive me bud, im not trying to be an ass but you got to put down the car craft and super chevy mags. You can build a car to run in the 10's from anywhere to 3k to 5k including rear,motor, trans converter. I'm a firm believer in doing more with less. You can build a dead reliable 355 that will make the car run in the 10's without making your pocket dry.

My advice to you is dont touch the engine, build the rear first and not the shitty 7.5 they put in those cars, get yourself something thats going to take some abuse, put a good gear in the car, 9 inch ends, weld the tubes,girdle, spool or a good posi unit, the whole 9 .
Now the ass of the car is in good shape.

2nd, reinforce the body meaning, subframes, front end if needed a good tq are or whatever you need for that f body( Ive never built an f body so if theres anything I'm leaving out then do it if needed)This is where you should start removing weight from the car if you dont need it. But Radio,Wipers,Heat, and interior are essentials and I say leave them where are.

3rd, build a mild 355, this is where you make your decision on what you want over the next couple years. If it were me and cash was tight, id do a cheap eagle kit, have the bottom end balanced, some domes or flat tops depending on what you want meaning pump gas, race gas ect....top it off with a set of decent heads,intake, cam, and carb which can all be bought on the net used for a good price and now the motors rapped up.

4th get a good stall converter and a good trans and rock out down the 1320. People are under the misconception that you need a million dollar car to run a 11 or 10 second pass but if you put that combo together the right way and match it then you can run in the 11's for a couple thousand and run in the 10's with a small shot.

I never set any world speed records with my junk but its been well into the 11's on JUNK parts and a little spary and was built at least 8 yrs ago. Its still going strong to this day. Cant blow the **** up. I have recently added up whats in my car, 4k with all the mistakes I made when I was much younger and thats with buying the car 10 years ago

Good luck man and just to clarify, these are my opinions and just that. Look around and pick peoples brains for info, thats what I did when I was a kid just starting out. Just remeber not to listen to everything you hear,2/3 of it is usually bullshit

[drummerdad]

Thanks. I think alot of the time you (or at least I do) get caught up in whats popular. The big inch small blocks are sweet, and very popular right now( and I hate car craft...Its jegs and summit ). But, I work on helicopters, not motors, or transmissions. So Id have to pay to have this stuff built. I can do wiring, and welding, and some other technical stuff, like plumbing, and simple fabrication. But I dont have alot of engine/trans specific tools. Id love to have a stout combo, and your not the first person to tell me to go smaller. Maybe I need to re-think the options. The problem is, there are hundreds of engines to look at.

And there are 2 reasons why I want the motor first. 1: the 305 makes 150hp. There are hybrids that can talk trash about my times. 2: its starting to blow a bit of smoke, and id rather not spend any money on a boat anchor L03.

Anyway, thanks for the advice. I guess I need to really figure out what my overall goal is, and then ask how to get there.

[mightymouse0355]

Thanks. I think alot of the time you (or at least I do) get caught up in whats popular. The big inch small blocks are sweet, and very popular right now( and I hate car craft...Its jegs and summit ). But, I work on helicopters, not motors, or transmissions. So Id have to pay to have this stuff built. I can do wiring, and welding, and some other technical stuff, like plumbing, and simple fabrication. But I dont have alot of engine/trans specific tools. Id love to have a stout combo, and your not the first person to tell me to go smaller. Maybe I need to re-think the options. The problem is, there are hundreds of engines to look at.

And there are 2 reasons why I want the motor first. 1: the 305 makes 150hp. There are hybrids that can talk trash about my times. 2: its starting to blow a bit of smoke, and id rather not spend any money on a boat anchor L03.

Anyway, thanks for the advice. I guess I need to really figure out what my overall goal is, and then ask how to get there.

Just to give you some confidence, the first motor I built was in my buddies garage at the age of 17 with a few wrenches, a ring compressor and a tq wrench. You dont need alot of tools. I shoulda balanced and plasitgaged that motor but it never blew up and was run for yrs and yrs so I must of done something right. I had no help and no clue what I was doing. You can build the engine yourself, measure, clean, plastigage and balance. The hardest part is getting your combo right and with a little research to see some proven combos that can be done easily as well.

And if you saw my passenger side fender and door on my car you would make sure you got the rear taken care of first. That was a fun filled night of chasing my axles down the rd, alot of cops, and a few good friends helping out. Trust me man, priorties

[Turbo chevelle]

Another vote for a SBC.

You can find some great "deals" on used engines on the internet especially sites like this and racingjunk.com.
Whatever engine you end up buying; make sure the heads are the best you can afford ! The key to making great power starts with a great set of the heads. If you inquire to some guys with stout combos, I'll bet they have invested some cabbage into the heads.
Also, check out this site's sponsors and see what they can offer you.

Good luck.

[jays64II]

you can build a large enough bore and stroke motor cheap enough. My choice would be a 406. Large bore and long stroke means good torque to move a heavy street car and enough horse to keep it goin down the track. don't buy into the theory that 400 blocks are weak. I'd do a flat top 406 with a good aftermarket crank and 6" rods and a good set of alum. heads that won't break the bank. you can make 500 horse at the crank on motor easily with the right combo. it's not as hard as ya think.

[mightymouse0355]

you can build a large enough bore and stroke motor cheap enough. My choice would be a 406. Large bore and long stroke means good torque to move a heavy street car and enough horse to keep it goin down the track. do buy into the theory that 400 blocks are weak. I'd do a flat top 406 with a good aftermarket crank and 6" rods and a good set of alum. heads that won't break the bank. you can make 500 horse at the crank on motor easily with the right combo. it's not as hard as ya think.

The only thing that sucks about them is the damn blocks seem like everyone wants an arm and a leg for them. I have been wanting one for some time now and can't seem to get my hands on one for less then highway robbery.

[drummerdad]

Id love to do a 406, or a 420 (like the one in the PAW catalog). The only thing thats really hurting me is, I want a forged bottom end. And that costs quite a bit, as you guys know. Ive seen a couple forged 383 short blocks for about $3000.
I guess the biggest mystery for me is, how much head do I need to make good numbers? I really like the World motown iron eagle heads. They come in everything from 170cc, to 235ccs. But, do I really need a 215cc head? And a .600 lift roller cam?

Heres what I have:
1991 pontiac firebird, 305, auto (700r) and a rearend not worth mentioning. All steel, no weight reduction. But its a base model, so it should weigh (Im told) around 3600lbs. Id be willing to get a fiberglass hood. And Im considering a tubular k-member, and a-arms, eventually.

What Id like:
11s on motor. My dream is to drive it to the track (its about 15 miles), under its own power, on "street" tires, run a 9.xx, and drive home. I know itll take some spray, or boost. Id rather do spray. Is that asking to much?

[Gameracing]

I agree with what's been written so far, my take; do the rear first, it's no fun walking home after your tire left and took a quarter panel with it(more money) , personally, I've had great luck with normally aspirated 406's ( not so much luck when sprayed) . On a budget, I believe, the best bang for the buck is a 383, ohio crank,speedomotive have some good deals, I've used them, their worth the money. I use afr and brodix heads, spend the money, their worth it. Cam it for the gear, converter and weight of the car, and be honest with the cam grinder, cam it for what you have, not what you wish you had. No reason you can't go 11's without spray. If your on a budget, I don't recommend nitrous, you caan bust up a lot of stuff while your learning,and even if you know what your doing, it's volitile stuff.

[jays64II]

a 406 rotating assembly shouldnt cost more than a 383 rotating assembly. Find a good 400 block. I know they are getting pricey but buy the time you machine a 350 block to make a 383 it's the same money. There are a few flat tappet solid cams on the shelf that will get a 3600 lb. car with a 406 , right gear , conv. and susp. into the 11's on motor with ease. I'm another big fan of AFR and Brodix heads. The heads and cam are were the power is made.

[Oldsmoduck]

you can build a large enough bore and stroke motor cheap enough. My choice would be a 406. Large bore and long stroke means good torque to move a heavy street car and enough horse to keep it goin down the track. do buy into the theory that 400 blocks are weak. I'd do a flat top 406 with a good aftermarket crank and 6" rods and a good set of alum. heads that won't break the bank. you can make 500 horse at the crank on motor easily with the right combo. it's not as hard as ya think.

Agreed.. and at 500hp, i wouldnt worry a wink. Im pushing just over 600 thru 2-bolt arp studded mains.. turn 6800.. I wont push it any further without more block work, but spending more money on a stock block isnt what i wanted to do to begin with..

Id build the same flat-top 400, but at 500hp id use a stock crank and keep it under 6500.

[jays64II]

The 700r4 will be the next weak link if you hafta have an O.D. trans. It'll cost a pretty penny to have one built right and a matching conv. to live behind 500 horse. It can be done though but not as cheap as a th350 or th400. if the car isn't gonna see any highway time i wouldn't even consider an O.D. trans. Pump gas 406 at 10.5-1 comp. , a set of out of the box Brodix Track 1's , vic jr. intake , 850 holley , crane solid sat. nite special cam .555/.578 lift would be my choice. easy to tune , wouldn't hafta go above 6300 with the right gear and conv. and would easily be a mid 11 sec. car on motor at 3600 lbs and yes you could do the exact same combo with a 383 if ya wanted to. as for the rear....do a 12 bolt. or if you can find a factory dana 44 from an f-body i'd jump on it.

[drummerdad]

Okay. A couple things.
I dont need, an overdrive, but Id like to keep it. TCI advertises a 700R thats supposed to be good for 600 hp. But its $2200. And I have yet to find a good lock up converter for the 700. I might just have to make a few calls, when it comes time, and go with a 350, or 400.

As for the rearend, I like the S60 from Strange. They say its as strong as a 9", and it comes with all the mounts for the f-body. $2200 for a bolt in, and Id have to replace the spool with a locker. I dont expect to ever have to change gears at the track. And theres no other reason to put a 9" in. Plus strange doesnt recommend a 9" for a torque arm car thatll be on the street. And the S60 looks twice as big as a 12 bolt.

Ive mentioned PAW a few times, and noone has said anything, good or bad. They do sell a 420cid short block kit. Its a .030 over 400 block, with billet 4-bolt main caps, and all the standard machining. A forged 4340- 3.875 stroke crank and what appears to be 5.7" chevy pink rods. They are shot-peened, magna-fluxed, etc.. I pick the compression (custom forged pistons), and cam. I called, and its a ready-to-assemble kit. $3300 plus shipping. My local machine shop wants $1500 for a rebuild, and any non-stock parts are extra. Only thing that comes with that is forged pistons. Buy a block, and a forged rotating assembly, and Im right back at $3000 plus.

And also, alot of you guys mentioned Brodix, and AFR heads. Are the World heads not on par with these? I want the cast iron heads, so I dont have to lower the front of the car. But if its worth the trouble, Ill go aluminum. Ive read that with the aluminum heads, I can add a point to the compression. Other than the decrease in weight, 1 point in compression wont add that much, will it?

[jays64II]

you can do iron heads on a bigger cubed motor like the iron eagles but make sure you try to keep the comp. to 10-1. You hafta leave the piston in the hole a bit or get a piston with a dish. you can use a cam that will bleed of some comp. but at 3600 lbs or so i wouldn't reccomend it if you are on a budget cause then you'd be lookin at a custon solid roller. If price is a main concern but you wanna go with the 420 cube rout you can still use the cam i said earlier at 10-1 with the iron heads at 220cc runners if they are available. It'll be nice and torquey

[HonkIfPartsFallOff]

But, I work on helicopters, not motors, or transmissions. So Id have to pay to have this stuff built. I can do wiring, and welding, and some other technical stuff, like plumbing, and simple fabrication.

I was 15 when I rebuilt my first engine. It's not real hard, it just takes alittle time, attention to detail, and a shop manual.

You can find a 350, do a basic re-ring stock rebuild. clean the heads, lap the valves, put a decent hyd flat tappet cam/lifter combo in for under 500 bucks. you could make 300 to 325 hp pretty easy and in the process learn what it takes to do this stuff. Pop the 300 hp 350 in and then go on with preparing the rest of the car for bigger HP. the 700r4 and 7.5 rear will survive on the street for a long time. 10 grand on a World product 427 is money down the drain for the ET you want to acheive, let alone the time frame your looking at. you could go alot faster for alot less a lot sooner. but it's your money and time.

[drummerdad]

You can find a 350, do a basic re-ring stock rebuild. clean the heads, lap the valves, put a decent hyd flat tappet cam/lifter combo in for under 500 bucks. you could make 300 to 325 hp pretty easy and in the process learn what it takes to do this stuff.

Originally I thought about doing it this way. Im just afraid Ill be stuck with the 300hp 350 forever. I know where I can get a running 4 bolt for $75. It has low oil pressure, but the guy recently put a cam in it, so I have a good idea where to look for the problems. But, Im leaning toward just building the engine I want the first time.

10 grand on a World product 427 is money down the drain for the ET you want to acheive, let alone the time frame your looking at. you could go alot faster for alot less a lot sooner. but it's your money and time.

I dont really understand this part, sorry. Why is it money down the drain? Its a 550 hp engine, and thats right about what Im guessing Ill need to run 11s on motor. Of course, I dont have $10k, so Im gonna have to go another route, but thats pretty much where I think I need to be. 500+ hp. And I want it forged, so I can spray it. Unless your saying the World engine isnt as good as I can get for the money. And I dont know about that. Ive been looking at engine catalogs, online and in print for about 4 years now. I might be able to save 1000 here or there, but for the hp rating, its about right.

[mightymouse0355]

10 grand on a World product 427 is money down the drain for the ET you want to acheive, let alone the time frame your looking at. you could go alot faster for alot less a lot sooner. but it's your money and time.

I dont really understand this part, sorry. Why is it money down the drain? Its a 550 hp engine, and thats right about what Im guessing Ill need to run 11s on motor. Of course, I dont have $10k, so Im gonna have to go another route, but thats pretty much where I think I need to be. 500+ hp. And I want it forged, so I can spray it. Unless your saying the World engine isnt as good as I can get for the money. And I dont know about that. Ive been looking at engine catalogs, online and in print for about 4 years now. I might be able to save 1000 here or there, but for the hp rating, its about right.

What he is saying is that you dont need a 10k motor to only run in the 11's....Im not trying to come off the wrong way so dont think that by this statement but how would you feel knowing you have 10k or better wrapped up in a high dollar engine running 11's and I come by with my p.o.s and blow your doors off with literal junk....With what you wnat to spend on that motor you should be in the 8's not the 11's.
Forged parts are great but why spend a shit load of money on the after market block and all these high dollar parts when all's yo want to run are 11's???

Its your money but these guys are trying to tell you not to waste your money on super expensive parts if your not looking to set the world on fire.
And I dont want you to think that just because your spending the loot on good parts they wont break just like the cheaper shit will. I have seen Junk short blocks out run and out last high dollar parts. Its not jsut about the parts. SPend your money wisely

[drummerdad]

I understand I dont need a motown block, or Dart little M block. And thats $2000 Im not going to spend. Ive mentioned the PAW 420 kit twice I think. I believe thats the way Im going to go. Its a $3200 kit, with a 400 block, converted to a 4-bolt main. And it has all the forged internals. My main goal is a good base engine, all forged, thatll run 11s on motor alone. That way I can spray it later, and shoot for nines. Im sure I already said that.

I know you guys arent trying to be harsh, and you get alot of stupid newbie questions on these drag racing sites. But I cant go to my local site and ask. All I get from them is "buy an LS1" or "get a mustang". Blah blah blah..... And if it isnt that, its some ricer, with a 75 shot of "nawsss" (damn fast and furious BS) that wants to talk smack. And sadly, they can, because his 1.3 liter POS on spray can outrun me. So to be perfectly honest, its all going to be about shutting a few people up. If I have to run 11s, or 10s or 8s to do, Im going to.

All I want is a pump gas small block (or if I have to, Ill go with a big block) that will put my 3600 lb car into the 11s, on motor, and still be able to take a pretty big shot of spray, so I can persue nines. It will have DOT tires, and has to survive about a 30 mile round trip. My plan is to start with the short block kit, and then while I build it slowly, get the other stuff, like a cage, sub-frame connectors, k-member, brake upgrade. And Ill buy a rearend, and built tranny on the way also. Dont worry about the small budget. My wife and I are talking about trying to up it, a bunch. Im building the car for nines, although I might not add the other 2 points in the cage till I actually brake into the nines. I dont care about running in any national events, or anything. Its about having a fast car, and shutting a few people up. As sad as that is, its the truth.

[killerstang434]

check this company out. a buddy order a motor from them and its been very reliable for to him

http://www.competitionproducts.com/prod ... =&sort_by=

[nosnerd]

sell the car and buy one turn key....all depends...but there are great values that can be had at this time of year (and later)

you will have less to do,more time to enjoy it...


when i was younger i had time but no money...so we borrowed,built fom scratch ...now i have money...but no time.....